Paul Ingles Interviews Mary Gauthier about her 2018 album Rifles and Rosary Beads

PI: I want to start by having you give props to the folks who got these songwriting partnerships going between musicians and veterans. It was underway before you jumped in with both feet. Who was doing what that got you intrigued with it?

MG: Yes, thanks for asking, Paul. I have been working with a group called Songwriting with Soldiers for over five years. The organization is about five and a half years old. It was founded by the songwriter Darden Smith and his friend Mary Judd. It’s a non-profit.

What they do is get private donations, grants, funders and pair up professional songwriters with wounded veterans. They go to a retreat center. Often times, the retreat center is in a very pastoral, gorgeous setting.

We’ve worked with veterans in Upstate New York and Bluemont, Virginia outside of D.C. Outside of Austin there is a beautiful Catholic retreat center. There is a place they’re going to now in Arizona.

It’s generally for songwriters and six to ten veterans. We come in on a Friday night and we write with them starting on Saturday morning and work all day and night Saturday and Sunday morning and by Sunday afternoon, we have often times more than ten or 12 songs that didn’t exist on Friday and they’re written in the words of the veterans as we bear witness and turn their stories into songs.

PI: I hope this doesn’t disrespect it at all, but I heard someone describe it as speed dating with music at the end. You’re communicating, but through music.

MG: Yes, we go fast because we have to. I think the level of songwriters that Darden brings to the program are master songwriters. When you’re listening to someone else’s story and you don’t have to bring your personal confusion into the equation, all you’re doing is basically midwifing their story. It is a relative quick process.

We’re not experienced soldiers. The songwriters are just songwriters. We listen and write down what they say. We make it rhyme. We find the melody that matches the emotion. It’s actually quite possible to write a really good song in 90 minutes.

PI: Well, you’ve proven that. I’m curious; you mentioned this confusion factor and I do want to get into this because part of peacemaking and part of our program is how you bring disparate people together.

Mary, happily, I’ve known you personally for nearly 15 years now and I’ve known your music for about 20. You played a couple of fundraisers for our Peace Talks Radio series.

You have a rather staunch anti-war stance in your politics. I’ve seen you get a news alert on your phone and make an announcement in a room loud enough for people to hear. You might just get a little protest march going right on the spot. Is that not right Mary? Have I described you accurately there?

MG: You got me. You got me. I’m a social justice warrior. I’m a folk singer. I am a registered Democrat.

I have, I think, an obligation to follow in the footprints and lessons of Woody Guthrie and Pete Seeger and I do that as an artist. I feel as though these songs actually fit right into that slot.

The thing is that the songs are not political, they are stories. The songs on this record are story songs and what we’re doing is giving voice to people whose stories are probably not being heard in the mainstream media.

By telling their stories, it allows the listener to experience empathy and I think that transcends the ideology of our time, the left and right warring factions. If we could get in and feel the experience of someone who we may not understand politically, I think that empathy can build a bridge and we have a human conversation.

Never once ever at any of these retreats, and I’ve been doing it for over five years now, have we ever gotten into a discussion of politics. It doesn’t happen. I hate to say this because of the times that we live in, but it’s not going to make a good song to put politics into it.

What has to happen for a good song is a little movie that gets you into the experiences of another person. The listener can then extrapolate their one belief systems and politics around what to do about it.

I completely disagree with the invasion of Iraq. I was against it at the time, I’m against it now. I didn’t see the reasoning behind it and I still don’t.

That said, I support the soldiers and their nobility, especially the soldiers who are struggling with the wounds of war.

PI: Well, and the reason for bringing it up was not to create a conflict here. I’m very curious about any transformation that you had to make at the start of this process in yourself to pull all that you just described out of yourself to be able to be ready for these people and be able to set aside at the door political proclivities.

MG: Yes, it’s a good question. I didn’t prepare myself politically, but I had to get over fear. I was afraid to do it. I think I had a lot of stereotypes in my mind as to who our soldiers are, who our warriors are. In my mind, I had this vision of all of our warriors as gun-loving, right-wing, homophobic, straight men. I haven’t met that guy yet in five years and change of doing this. That stereotype was false. In retrospect, not only was it false, but I feel like an idiot for thinking that way.

I’ve gotten to know so many people who have become like family to me through this program. I had to overcome the fear of that stereotype which was a person that I have never met yet.

Music is a beautiful way to get into another person’s emotional landscape. As we sit and make songs from the veterans’ stories, there is a love that happens and it’s real. The connections are very, very strong.

PI: Well Mary Gautheir, when I heard about this work that you were doing, I have to say the first thing I thought of was that makes perfect sense. We talked about this on stage at that last concert you did for us. One of your specialties is recognizing the humanity in people who are struggling in a way that may have little directly to do with your own experiences.

You’ve written songs about the kind of the hobos and prisoner’s families and thieves counting money on hotel room beds and gatherings of homeless under the bridge at Christmastime.

I think I know how and why, but talk some more about this project being really an extension of what you’ve always been interested in writing about.

MG: That’s such a good question, Paul, thank you. I don’t know. I think “Those who have suffered understand suffering and thereby extend their hand.” That’s William Blake. I think that I always have had compassion for the underdog because I have always perceived myself as the underdog. That’s the stories I want to tell and that’s the stories I’m interested in and really, spiritually, those are the stories I can tell.

I don’t have the capacity to write a whole lot of different stories that I don’t understand. I can write from that place, that wounded place. It’s a constant companion for me and I’m able to write about it even though I’ve never been on death row or under a bridge on Christmas. It’s a stone’s-throw for me. I got that. I can get in and write that.

I think that’s the gift that I have from the muse is to write those stories. I don’t need to wander too far from there because that’s what I’m called to do. It will keep me busy until my last breath because of the way that life works.

PI: Well, that’s good for all of us. Am I correct in guessing that most of the veterans and people that you’re working with do not know your music when they sit down to talk with you for the first time?

MG: I think you could probably go ahead and say that none of them have ever heard of me, which is great.

PI: At Peace Talks Radio, we’re about process. I’m trying to hear something about this process that people can apply to their own lives. We’re all afraid to sit down with the other.

You described a little bit of the distance between you and the people you’re writing songs with. When you sit down together, talk a little bit about the process of trying open yourself up and then to be aware of what they need. You talked about yourself as a channel for them. Can you describe a little bit of the dynamic of that that makes it work?

MG: Yes, it works really beautifully. The first thing that has to happen, and this is important, is they need to feel safe. Darden and Mary, the founders of Songwriting with Soldiers really understand that. When we get them to the retreat center, the retreat center itself feels safe.

One of the veterans, Josh, told me he felt safe because it was up on top of a hill. As a civilian, that would never occur to me that being on top of a hill was safe. It was pretty, but I don’t think of ambushes. It’s in his daily thinking that he is safer on top of a hill.

The retreat centers have really, really good food. The rooms are always comfortable and the environment is quiet and peaceful. There is not a lot of noise. There are not a lot of bright lights. There are a lot of things that go into creating safety, especially for people who are struggling with PTSD. It has to do with the sense.

I think Darden and Mary put a lot of thought into that; no loud noises, no bright lights, really good food, a comfortable room, soft-spoken voices. We don’t raise our voices. There is no pandemonium. It’s songwriters, a cook, a couple of people on staff including a psychiatrist in case anything gets stirred up.

The veterans, we get to know each other the first night over dinner. Then the songwriters play a little concert for them so they can pick the songwriter they feel they resonate with. The four songwriters get in front of the group and play two or three songs each. They know who they like. They know whose songs speak to them. We read each other in one thousand ways. They pick who they feel comfortable with and it always works out. There is already this thought process going into creating safety and comfort.

The next morning, the veteran and the songwriter go find a quiet room. He or she will sit down and I’ll say, “When did you serve? Where did you serve? What was it like? Is there something you really want to write about? Tell me about your husband. Tell me about your wife. Tell me about your kids. How long have you been out? Are you still active duty?” Just basic questions.

As they start to talk, I’ll write down things that they say on my computer and, at a certain point, it becomes pretty clear what their soul is either suffering with or longing to say. The song starts to take some kind of shape. I find a melody. The melody acts like a magnet that helps pull a story out. When someone is playing music that sounds like how you feel at the moment, it pulls the story because you feel as though you’re being heard.

Then this thing happens. For me, it always happens in a trance. I can’t fully remember the process in retrospect. I don’t know how it all unfolded, but then there is this baby that was born, and all babies are beautiful.

The songs are magnificent. The songwriters stay out of their own experience. We don’t impose our experiences into the veterans’ words, we just write down what they say to get to their song. Even though we’re the writer, it’s their story.

PI: If I had to sum up in three words what you just described, I would say it boils down to listening, empathy and curiosity that you have to bring to that consciously.

MG: Yes.

PI: The other thing that you said that resonates so much with me, and I’ve quoted this for my own therapist on this program before; active listening is so critical, and you said that they need to know that they’ve been heard.

MG: Yes, very important.

PI: My therapist says in a conversation when you’re listening to somebody, you have to first make it right for them and what he means by “make it right” is that you’re reflecting back what he or she said so that they absolutely feel that they’ve got it. If they don’t have it, then they have a chance to say no, that’s not exactly right, here is what it is more like.

MG: Absolutely.

PI: I’m imagining that digging, particularly for song lyrics, that process goes back and forth a few times before you hear something that you think will work.

MG: Absolutely. The process is exactly as you described it. I’ll say, “I think I hear you say this. Is this what you said?” They can correct me in a place that’s really safe for them to do it. What’s important is that I tell them that I’m a songwriter. I’ll find 500 ways to say “sunset.” You don’t have to worry about it. If that’s not right, we’ll find another way to say it. This is my job. This is what I do. There is no problem if that’s not right. I’ll find a way to make it right for you. They feel comfortable in correcting.

The other part that is important is to play it for them and then ask them if it’s right, line by line. If there is one single word that is not right, it’s not right. And to make them know without a doubt that we can fix it. It’s fast. This is what we do every day. It’s our job. We know how to do this.

PI: Yes, and if it’s not right, they’ll have a cringe moment every time they hear it for the rest of their lives, so it’s worth going back and getting it right.

MG: Exactly and also to impress upon them that getting to their truth is going to help other people. It’s important to get it right, not only for them, but for the people who are going to hear their song. That really gets their attention because of course, they’re volunteers, and they want to be of service. Once they get that their song can go out and be of service to other people, they really want to get it right.

PI: In the song that you did for us early on, the title cut, Rifles and Rosary Beads, you cowrote that with Joe Costello, is that right?

MG: Correct. Joe served during the surge in Fallujah. He went to Iraq at 19 and described to me what he saw. A big part of getting them to open up has to do with me explaining a song as a little movie. I encourage them to give me pictures.

Joe said, “Well, what I saw was orange smoke and yellow haze and little kids in the streets crying without any adults anywhere around. I saw bombed out schools and bombed out homes. I saw guys holding onto their weapons with a grip so tight that their knuckles were white. I saw other guys, Catholic soldiers with Rosary Beads in their hands and they were rolling them and rolling them and rolling them.” That imagery right there is a song.

PI: I’m a lyrics geek and I wrote down what you just described which is how it came out in the song was; “Whistling sunset bombs. I couldn’t trust the sky.” I thought about that for a moment. I’m getting a little emotional thinking about it. I know when I need to clear my head and I need a moment of peace, I look to the skies out here in New Mexico. You’ve seen them out here. They are amazing and almost never fails to convey peace, but imagine not being able to trust the sky.

MG: Yes, he told me that. He said, “I couldn’t trust the sky.” I don’t think a civilian can comprehend fully what it means to be unable to trust the sky.

PI: I know, but what just happened to me is what you’re shooting for, right? For someone to hear that and –

MG: Yes, you got as close as we can possible get to the experience of a young man just out of Austin Texas, 19 years old, boots on the ground in Fallujah. The song is a magnificent vehicle for empathy.

PI: Mary Gauthier is on the line with us from Audio Productions in Nashville. We’re thankful to them for helping us out and her 2018 album is called Rifles and Rosary Beads, part of a songwriting project that she’s been involved with for some time working with veterans and veteran’s families.

This other song, that has gotten some attention is Still on the Ride with Josh Gerdts who was crippled by a roadside bomb the day before he was to ship out and leave Iraq.

He was troubled by losing a buddy, not in that accident, but in an incident during his tour of duty. How far did you have to dig to learn that that’s what Josh had to write about which you did in Still on the Ride with him?

MG: Josh was in a roadside bomb explosion on his last day in Iraq. He got traumatic brain injury from the explosion and he’s disabled now. He’s in a wheelchair.

When Josh and I sat down, his story had so many layers of trauma, I didn’t even know where to begin. He has layers on top of layers on top of layers of trauma. There is so much going on with him that I was overwhelmed, and it was very difficult to know which one was preeminent.

But when he was finally able to get down to this deep place then he reached a place where I could tell that this was the one that hurt him the most and what he carried that hurt him even more than being disabled which was the survivor’s guilt.
His best friend died in a vehicle crash and he was supposed to be in that vehicle, but he got out because he wanted his best friend and his best friends’ fiancé to have that ride as a newly engaged couple. He got out and said, “You guys go on.”

PI: That’s a Buddy Holly story.

MG: The accident was catastrophic and there is so much horror around it. I don’t want to talk too much about the details because it will make me – I can’t do it without getting too emotional.

PI: Let me ask you this Mary about it then because the key line to me is “It’s not up to me who lives and who dies.”

MG: He said that.

PI: I was curious if that was a line that came from him or did you, having observed his pain, suggest that that line would be good for his own healing?

MG: Well, like I said, I go into a trance, but I’m pretty sure he said that or something close to that. He said, “Looking back now, who the hell knows?” Because I asked him, “Why do you think you’re here?” He kept saying, “I shouldn’t be here, and he shouldn’t be gone.” I remember saying, “Why do you think you’re here?” He goes, “Looking back now, who the hell knows?” So I just wrote that down and that’s the first line of the song.

Then I said, “Who the hell knows where the soul of a dead soldier goes?” He goes, “Yeah.” We got down this track of talking about guardian angels and I asked him if he believed in guardian angels and that maybe that’s why he’s here.

I’m convinced I have guardian angels. I know I should be dead given so many things that I did in my drug and alcohol years. I should be dead. I have guardian angels and I know it.

I was thinking this young man in front of me had them too. He said, “It’s as good of an explanation as any.” That’s what got us down the road with the song that maybe his friend is his guardian angel. Why not? Maybe it’s not literal that that’s occurring literally, but as a metaphor and some kind of belief to have faith in, it makes as good as sense as anything.
We need our stories in a Joseph Campbell kind of way.

He was able to go there and so we wrote a song about him and his guardian angel and at the end of it he said it was the first time he was able to experience hope since he had come home. That song brought him to a place of hope.