Suzanne Kryder interviews Justin Remer-Thamert, director, New Mexico Faith Coalition For Immigrant Justice.

SK: Justin, tell us about your job.

JRT: I work as the Director of the New Mexico Faith Coalition for Immigrant Justice. We are an organization that overlaps between advocacy for better immigration policy, education with the community about immigration issues and direct service support for families who are facing crisis, whether that be seeking asylum in the United States, looking for support with a family member in deportation proceedings or in detention.

We’ve also been doing a lot of work with trans women coming out of the Cibola Detention Center about 60 miles west of Albuquerque. We have a post-release network that will offer support as they are coming out of detention and on their way to sponsors.

There are a number of other ways in which direct service plays out. A court companion program that supports people who are afraid to show up at court or at the police office. A rapid response network that shows up when immigration is present in the community and a number of other efforts to try to raise attention to immigration issues and support families that impacted.

SK: You made a choice; you’re a smart dude and you could have been a lawyer or a CEO, but you chose to be the executive director of a non-profit. I’m curious, what impacted you as you grew up to make this work choice?

JRT: I think there have been a number of factors that have played in, both a father who was involved in the Sanctuary Movement in the 1980s and time that I spent in Latin America from the time that I was in Middle School.

Also, getting to know people who are impacted by our immigration system has made this very personal. I would say that may of the people who I have worked with prior to my work at the Faith Coalition as well as currently really life up how devastating our system is.

We’ve worked with asylum-seekers who are in asylum proceedings four years after they came to the United States and asked to begin the process.

I think also seeing that so many people have died in immigration custody makes this something that really merits and requires that, as people of faith, as people of conscience, we are working towards a world where people can come to a country seeking support and not be in risk of dying in immigration custody.

SK: You said, “people of faith” and “people of conscience,” but I think immigration is controversial and I think some people might say, “I’m a person of faith,” but they don’t’ believe in immigration. What would you say about that?

JRT: It’s an interesting mix. If you look at almost any faith tradition, there is some story of migration. Whether that is Siddh?rtha venturing outside of the palace and coming into contact with sickness and death or whether it is the notion of Jesus Christ coming to Earth. That is a form of migration. His family were asylum-seekers. So many of the Biblical characters in the Hebrew Bible and Christian Bible were migrants or refugees or trafficking victims. I think looking at any faith tradition, you can find a story of migration.

The fact that we are on something of a spiritual journey, that also means that we need to look at the physical journey that other people are facing.

SK: “A spiritual journey;” it sounds like that was part of your process. Do you feel you’re on a spiritual journey?

JRT: Absolutely. I was raised Lutheran and was very connected to particularly the way people of faith in El Salvador had been part of the Salvadorian Civil War and struggled for liberation.

I would say that where I am today, while my spiritual journey is probably wider than just the Christian tradition. I connect to an understanding of how we are living in harmony with all of the sources around us and how the story of faith is one that is shared between most traditions.

SK: Your father was in the Sanctuary Movement. I’m curious how that impacted you as you were growing up. Do you remember that process?

JRT: I do. I was one year old when my father was put on trial with [inaudible] Martinez, a reporter who had gone down to El Paso to be able to document the story of two Salvadorian women who had come to the U.S. after they had been impregnated by soldiers.

Just recognizing that from the time that I was a child I could have been separated from my father and he could have been in jail for 45 years for standing up for what his faith told him to do. Recognizing that we need to live with justice in mind for our neighbors.

In high school I did a pretty in-depth study about the Sanctuary Movement and seeing how that tied into my own family’s life. I would also say that since my sister was adopted from El Salvador, there have been many ways over the years when I was studying liberation theology in El Salvador and when my sister and I went back to El Salvador in 2015 that we were able to understand more of the roots of how our lives were impacted by the Sanctuary Movement of the ‘80s and how that continues to have ramifications today.

SK: Standing up, that is hard. See, I’m from a generation where when I was in the seventh grade, Martin Luther King was assassinated and then a few months later, Bobby Kennedy was assassinated. I learned that people who speak up and stand up get shot. I don’t want to say that I don’t stand up for things, but I’m more nervous about that. What would you say to our listeners who are nervous about standing up?

JRT: There is an inherent risk to standing up however in my personal journey, that is not something that I want to paralyze me. I can understand that there are certainly risks that people have faced in this country and around the world for standing up. Courageous resistance is just something that we learn step by step; standing up when we see a very small act which can lead us to stand up when we see something bigger happen.

Especially at this moment in time when we are seeing across the globe so much division and so much xenophobia, the cost of not standing up will end up being something that is much more problematic than being willing to take the risk that it bears on our lives.

SK: This is confusing to me because of the ego. In the spiritual journey of letting go of the ego, the ego realizes that there should be courageous resistance. What would you say to that?

JRT: A friend of mine was recently talking to me about sacred activism. Sacred activism is something that ties into the understanding, similar to liberation theology, that our lives and our spiritual journey are intertwined. While I may aspire towards letting go of ego and moving to a higher connection with the energy source, I also am living in the physical plane and have to acknowledge that my neighbors don’t have the same privileges that I do or have been historically oppressed. Part of my spiritual journey is learning how to extend that liberation onto others and stand with others who are struggling for liberation.

SK: Justin Remer-Thamert, if a listener anywhere in the United States right now wants to get involved either in immigrant work or immigrant justice, what would you recommend?

JRT: I think that there are small organizations and large organizations across the country that are doing work for immigrant justice and that are doing work in other fields.

Over this last year, we have seen how integral each of these movements are. Struggles for indigenous work overlap with immigration in many ways whether we’re looking at indigenous people who are living on the border or coming to the United States who are indigenous.

Looking for an organization in one’s home community is an important way to start to get involved. There are national organizations like Immigrant Families Belong Together that can help connect someone with efforts in their own community. Google is our friend in that you can find out what’s happening in your own community and ways to plug into similar efforts.

SK: So it’s not just about immigrants. People may think they don’t have an immigrant issue [in their community], but it may be indigenous issues.

JRT: It may be indigenous issues. Many immigrants are coming from Africa and there can be tie-in’s to Black Lives Matter because, for asylum-seekers who are living here in New Mexico, in doing a cultural orientation training we had to let them know the risk of being black in the United States.

We’re talking about intersectional issues. Environmental issues are displacing thousands of people across the globe right now. There again we’re seeing the intersection of environmental issues and immigration. All of these issues are overlapping in one way or another.

SK: Justin, I’m curious what you would say to a group of people who would say that a lot of immigrants are terrorists or people who are going to hurt us or take our jobs. It might be a large group that you’re speaking to or someone at the Thanksgiving dinner table who has a really different view of immigration than you do, what would you say to them?

JRT: I think one of the places to start is with personal stories. If someone has a connection to someone who is an immigrant, being able to lift up that many of the individuals that we know are humble people.

Many times they’ve come here because they’ve opened up their refrigerator and they don’t have food that they can give their children or staying in their home country means that their children will be at risk of death.

Recognizing for example one of the mothers who was detained in El Paso and was released when hundred of migrants were just dumped at a park in El Paso. One of the mothers was talking about how she tried to give a blanket to her child in an immigration detention center and that blanket was taken away from her and she was given a piece of mylar foil to wrap her baby.

I think it’s important for us to question who is being the terrorist. Who is acting in ways that are harmful?

A Border Patrol Agent shot a child 34 times in the back when that child was in Mexico.

We’ve never seen a terrorist come through our southern border. Refugees who have been resettled in this country have not become terrorists.

We hear a narrative of people who are rapists and murderers and terrorists and that is not the reality. First, knowing the facts is helpful. Second, understanding the stories [is helpful].

We are seeing thousands of Central American migrants coming to the United States and they are largely people under five feet tall and they’re very skinny. They are often times malnourished because of the painful, problematic journey that it took to bring their children to this country. Just look at someone like that. They don’t pose a threat to us.

People of faith should recognize that our faith calls us to be kind and extend generosity and hospitality to our neighbors, and particularly to the people we don’t know, the people who may be called strangers in some traditions.

It takes a risk to see that a person is a person rather than a number or a terrorist or a certain box that we try to fill, but one of the most important things that we can start to do is shift this fear-based narrative in our country to one that understands the reality that people are seeking a better life for their child or their family or seeking a space where they can live justly.

U.S. policy often times has had a detrimental impact on our own country, be that through war or through trade agreements. It robs our ability to have a sustainable life.

SK: What is one story you would tell to help people understand and empathize with immigrants?

JRT: One of the families that we have worked with within the Faith Coalition from 2013, right when I was starting at the organization, the father had worked as a police officer in Mexico. He and his boss confronted a situation in Mexico and his boss was killed and he was disabled. He recognized that he had to flee Mexico with his wife and children in order to be able to live because staying at home, he knew that they would be targeted and killed.

They came to the U.S. border and said that they wanted to start the process of seeking asylum. Their immigration case, after five and a half years, has not been resolved. They still have not been able to argue their case even though they have established their lives here, teaching and being able to have their children understand English. The family all speaks English. They have become an integral part of our community.

I think that shows that when we give opportunities and support for families to make new lives, they can succeed, but it requires an openness to extending that.

Suzanne Kryder Interviews Bawa Jain, the Secretary-General of The
Millennium World Peace Summit of Religious and Spiritual Leaders

BJ: Peace achieved through violence in my opinion, first of all is not sustainable. Why? Because you might quell somebody and quiet them down for a while, but if they are disgruntled, they will rise again.

Our focus, which actually comes from my tradition, my tradition being a Jain. One of the most dominant Jains of our lifetime was Mahatma Gandhi and he was educated on the principles of nonviolence, ahimsa we call it, from the teachings of Jainism and we follow the nonviolence back in our thinking, in our actions, in our speech. That’s what I have been trying to follow all my life.

Some of the initiatives in 1998 when I was codirector and founder, launched the Season for Nonviolence commemorating the assassination of Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King and trying to see if we could educate people around the country on the principles of nonviolence and non-violent civil action as propagated by Martin Luther King. Martin Luther King, as you know, also first acknowledged that his teacher in that aspect of non-violent conviction was Mahatma Gandhi.

We launched a Season for Nonviolence and that spread very quickly across 115 cities in the country and schools all over. It was very successful, but we need many more things like that.

My life is constantly engaged in mediating wherever there are zones of conflict. We do quietly what we call religious diplomacy and I go and try to mediate and see if we can have a nonviolence resolution to the conflicts.

SK: When you say, “nonviolent principles,” what are a couple principles?

BJ: Our first principle is to go and try to engage in a dialogue. You can’t just condemn or demonize anybody because of what they are doing. All we can do is start to engage with them. We are doing this because we know that there is a need for it.
There is violence, there is conflict, there is tension, so we promote this.

Now what we are trying to promote is responsible leadership. Part of responsible leadership is making decisions based on the future, not the present, making decisions based on conviction, not convenience. Sometimes it might be convenient to hit somebody if you’re angry, but is that what you should really be doing? Is that going to help resolve it? There are consequences. All actions have consequences.

The third part of the principles of responsible leadership is, is it constructive or destructive? With the principles of nonviolence, if you engage in a violent situation, that is destruction.

SK: Mr. Jain, when I mad, I’m just mad in the moment. I’m not thinking about the future. How do you get people thinking about the future and the consequences?

BJ: I will humbly appeal to all the listeners. When you are angry and you are going to do something, try to restrain yourself and slowly count to ten. It is my experience that 90% of the time, that state of anger will disappear or weaken and you will begin to make decisions consciously and responsibly.

SK: So count to ten?

BJ: Very calmly try to count slowly to ten thinking about what impact and consequences what you are about to say will have. Ask yourself, “If I say this, what will be the ramifications?” Once you utter those words or commit that action, it’s very difficult to take that back.

There is so much conflict around the world. We need people who are really acting out of conviction that’s why I go back to responsible leadership. For this reason, one of the motivations is that at the end of April, we are doing our Summit for Responsible Leadership. It’s called the Responsible Leader’s Summit at the United Nations. The website for that is www.thecrl.org. Please visit it. Look at it and see if any of those principles appeal to you. Try to answer those questions for yourself and the you decide whether or not you are a responsible leader.

SK: Bawa Jain, there is a percentage of people that don’t believe in any faith tradition. It’s increasing in the U.S. What role do those people play who are not really in a faith tradition?

BJ: I’m not promoting any religion or any faith. What we are talking about is responsible leadership. We have done a lot of work with religious leaders all my life literally. Now we are launching the Center for Responsible Leadership. Whether you believe or not, there are challenges that each one of us face irrespective of where we are, so what are we going to do to address those things?

What we are doing is reminding people about their responsibilities. You decide what you want to do, but do something. Don’t just sit around twiddling your thumbs. Life has to have meaning and purpose. Ask yourself the question, “Are you satisfied with the way things are today? Is this the world that you want for your children and your children’s children?” If not, then get up and do something!

SK: You still use the word “interfaith” don’t you?

BJ: No, I do not. Actually, from the very outset the World Council of Religious Leaders following the Millennium Summit at the UN, our fundamental purpose was to use the power of religion to work on social issues, social causes and the help transform the world.

For instance, irrespective of what faith you follow or you do not follow, if there are issues in your community, they will impact everybody. Those issues don’t decide to impact you whether you’re a Christian or a Muslim or a Jew or a Hindu or a Buddhist or a Jain or a non-believer. It impacts everybody. We have to have collective thinking, but individual action.

SK: There are some people who are in a faith and they use their faith as a way to create war.

BJ: Unfortunately, that is true. If you go back through some of our history, at the Millennium Summit, His Excellency Kofi Annan, then Secretary General said it best and I’m always reminded and guided by that. He said, “The problem often times is not with the faith, but the faithful.”

Take for instance Islam. So much of global terrorism, everything we keep attributing to the religion of Islam is not fair. Those are the misguided acts of a few. Those people who are committing those heinous crimes in the name of Islam are the biggest enemies of Islam. They are not holding the true teachings of the religion.

Similarly, you have other radicals and fundamentalists who use shelter or seek shelter or legitimacy of religion to perpetrate their heinous crime. They are the biggest enemies of that religion, of any religion. No faith, in my mind, condones those kinds of acts. The people who try to use that, they need to be isolated and segregated from our communities. Hopefully we can engage with them and help increase their understanding and perhaps transform their thinking, change their hearts.

SK: Mr. Jain, you said that you want to engage with these people who are not using true teachings. How do you engage with them?

BJ: Let me just say, the motivation for us to do what we are doing is because we know that there are challenges, but we know that there is an urgent need. We often times work those people especially who we do not agree with. That’s where you can bring transformation.

We use influential, prominent leaders and then we bring in the people who can learn from them and be helped by those teachers through mentorship programs and then use those tools for their own circumstances and issues.
Always make the distinction; the people who are using religion to commit these heinous acts of violence and crimes are the biggest enemies of the religion. I segregate them. I do not let them take the legitimacy of the sacred faith. That’s not what God destined for us.

SK: See, this is helpful for our listeners because sometimes people say things that our listener doesn’t believe in, but I’m hearing two different things; isolate them and use tools to try to transform them.

BJ: Absolutely. I have met many of them. They really are crying out for help. Reach out to them. Try to get through to their core and see where they can begin to listen. Believe me, it’s been my experience that once you can gain a little bit of their trust, they open up. I’ve had many people weep with me suddenly when engaging with them. Be sincere. When you do that, do not go with any expectation of personal gratification, of personal benefits. You have to do this selflessly with a real commitment to transform and help the other.

Be a good listener. What I tell my team is “Listen with your entire body.” The words themselves don’t tell you enough. Often times, there is a subtle shift in your body, little twitches and movements that can teach you much more than words will ever tell.

SK: So, you feel a shift in your body, Bawa. What does the shift mean? What do you do next?

BJ: You can gauge very well when you’re very attentive and focused to see whether the person is being sincere or not, whether the person is crying out for help or not, whether the person is struggling in some way. You have to just be very focused and listen and then respond if the person opens up.

SK: So, you’re saying a person would know what to do next? If the other person is really struggling or really being sincere, what do I do next?

BJ: Be understanding. Have some compassion. Often times don’t volunteer judgements, just listen. Listen. Don’t jump to conclusions or judgements. Remember, often times, these actions come unfortunately sometimes because of some hurt and sometimes because of your ego. Your ego was being bruised and you react that way. Give them some room. Have some mercy, some forgiveness, engage them. See how they are willing to acknowledge and transform. It is sometimes a very tedious process. You have to have an extreme amount of patience.

The one principle is do not jump to judgement. Do not make judgements. Keep engaging. Keep the conversation going. Sometimes, just staying silent but continuing to send out a positive energy, a positive attitude, that in itself can have an enormous impact.

SK: Mr. Jain, this have been so helpful. Last question, what have you not said that you want to say?

BJ: What have I not said that I want to say? All I would say in conclusion is that we are at a very critical time in history. If you look around today, there is so much that is dividing us. Politics has become so polarized. I think we have to restore civility to the public discourse. People with some kind of rationale, some kind of reason reach out, take some responsible actions.

That’s why we called for the Summit for Responsible Leadership. You can look up some of the principles, some of what we are trying to do at www.thecrl.org and help us identify those people who, in your mind, think are responsible leaders. We want to bring them together and hopefully, through this, have a ripple effect and multiplication so that maybe in ten or 20 years, this becomes part of our DNA. We won’t have to go and remind anybody. We will naturally conduct ourselves to care for others, make decisions for the future, make decisions out of conviction, not just convenience and make sure that they are constructive and not destructive.