Megan Kamerick interviews Layla Saad, author, Me and White Supremacy

LS: This leaves many white kids who then grow up into white adults in a situation where they just don’t have the ability to be able to have conversations around race with any nuance and are not able to handle the complexities of it. There is this binary thinking that racists are bad people and I’m not a bad person therefore I am not a racist. That’s where the conversation ends.

MK: Many of us well-meaning white people fall intentionally or unintentionally into a trap of trying to prove we are “one of the good ones.” Why is it important to recognize this and move beyond it?

LS: Sometimes there is such a deep desire to be seen as good that more is put on how something looks than on what something is under the surface. It’s very easy to give the image of something. It’s very easy to create a perception, but it’s not easy to do the work underneath.

When you have white privilege and you’ve been so protected from having to look at race and racism and what white privilege means for yourself and for people of color, human nature is that we don’t like being uncomfortable and we want to be seen as good. It’s a recipe for if I want to be part of the solution of racism, but all I do are the surface level things so that people will think I’m a good person but not investigate what’s lying underneath.

Being racist has nothing to do with your intentions about being a good person or being a bad person. When we are living within a system that treats one type of person one way and another type of person another way and the whole of society is built in that way, we’re all conditioned into that. No one is free from that. No one is the exception to that.

I talk about white exceptionalism in the book; this idea that if you write enough books on race or if you have enough people in your life, friends, peers, family members, who are people of color, you consider yourself very liberal or very progressive that that’s enough and that’s all it takes to be antiracist. It just isn’t.

MK: On that point, why did you want to use the term for the book “White Supremacy” rather than something less hard-hitting? You talk about white privilege and unconscious bias.

LS: It would have probably been an easier sell, but the way that I look at this is that we can’t talk around the topic. We have to look at it directly. We can’t look at it sideways.

When we look at it indirectly, we’re still afraid of the thing. We’re still afraid to really uncover what it means whereas when we talk about it directly and take the fear out of it and take the negative connotations or the idea that that only belongs to one type of person, “It’s those people but not me, therefore I can’t be associated with white supremacy.”

White supremacy is not an identity that you take on. Racism isn’t something that you can choose or not choose in the same way that people of color can’t say, “I don’t feel like dealing with racism today.” “I don’t feel like being impacted by racism today.”

For me, this whole process was about telling the truth and we cannot tell the truth if we’re not willing to name the thing directly.

MK: I also wanted to note that you write in the book, and this is a quote, “Do not use this work as a stick to beat yourself with, but rather use it to interrogate your complicity within a system of privilege that is only designed to benefit you to the extent that you can conform to the rules of whiteness. How do you suggest that we find that balance where we aren’t just beating ourselves up? It’s really easy to get stuck.

LS: This work is really hard and very challenging. It brings up many different kinds of feelings. I often talk with people about the difference between shame and guilt. Brené Brown has done extensive work on this.

Guilt is very, very helpful because what guilt says is that I have been the beneficiary of a violent system of oppression that has harmed people of color. I have unconsciously often done things that have harmed people of color. The guilt is telling me that that went against my values and it went against who I believe I am and what I believe I’m here to be. Guilt tells us that’s wrong and I don’t want to be a part of it so I can change my behavior.

Shame says, “I should hate myself because I’m a white person.” That is so destructive. It’s not constructive at all because it leaves you in a state of paralysis essentially and it means that you can’t create any change because what’s the point, you can’t escape your white skin.

I talk about the three things that you need to do this work, TLC, truth, love and commitment.

You need to be able to tell the truth because that’s how we get underneath the unconscious stuff and pull it out and be able to deal with it.

You need love. That’s really important to me. It’s something that I have seen so many civil rights activists and change makers in the area of social justice talk about; something greater than themselves, something greater than the awful ways that we treat each other to pull us forward. I say that the truth telling will get hard and when it does, you need something greater than pain or shame to motivate you to keep going.

The “C” is commitment. You need commitment because at some point, it’s going to be like why keep going. You have to be committed to something greater than yourself to keep going.

MK: You make it clear that this will be very difficult work for people who undertake it. How do you advise people to take care of themselves as they work through internalized racism?

LS: Examining the stuff brings up a lot because white privilege protects you from having to think about what being white means. As soon as you start doing this work, this excavation work, first of all, a lot of people said that they were being more racist as they brought the stuff out because now they were more aware of the thoughts that were always there.

They reported things like they weren’t able to sleep very well. They were having digestive issues. They were having racing thoughts. They felt detached. When they would be at school or the supermarket, they would be very aware of how racism plays out in very casual, everyday ways.

What I say to people is that what they’re experiencing when they go through that is what people of color are experiencing all the time.

As I prepare people for this work, I also want them to go into it with the understanding not to just try to sprint through it, get to the end and be exhausted by the end and then not want to continue after the 28 days are over. Think about this as life-long change and therefore have the necessary support. That support can look like having accountability partners or doing the work in groups and I include instructions for how to do that.

MK: You ask in the book as people are doing this that we avoid relying on people of color to help in that processing. Why is that?

LS: You may start to realize that interactions you’ve had in the past with people of color in your life where you thought something was fine, but now that you’re reflecting and learning, you’re realizing that was probably racist or me using my white privilege in a way that was harmful.

You may want to process with that person and approach them and saying, “Do you remember when this happened? Can I talk to you about it?” That’s so unfair to people of color to hold that space for you because if they didn’t say anything to you about it, they probably had to let it slide off their back and not process it for themselves because it’s too much.

For you, it may be a way to work out or figure out what your unconscious racist beliefs are, but for them it’s a reminder of what it means to be impacted by racism. If there are people of color in your life and you want to have these conversations with them, first of all you need to understand the toll of emotional labor it’s going to require of them.

Secondly, if they do say yes, you have to make sure that they are giving clear consent and that they understand what they’re consenting to. It’s not an intellectual conversation for them. It’s a very real life, lived, embodied experience for them and it’s not fair to put that on them.

MK: Layla Saad, when people work through the different components of your me, Me and White Supremacy, you have chapters on white silence and white saviorism. In the first you write that “No matter what level of power or influence we have, our voice is needed, but not as white saviors.” Explain the difference and how trying to do the first could lead to people mistakenly doing the second.

LS: People really struggle with this because it becomes the either or; am I supposed to speak up or am I not supposed to speak up?

Before I get into defining that and how to figure it out, it’s really important for people to understand that there is no checklist for how to do this work perfectly. When you see something racist happening, it is up to you to say something because often in a situation where a person of color is one of the only people there and everyone else is white, when that person of color speaks up and says, “This is racist,” often times they will be gaslit and told, “This isn’t about race. Why are you playing the race card?” They didn’t mean it that way, but when a white person stands in solidarity with them, which is what allyship is, to back up their voice, that person of color knows that they’re not alone. That’s very, very important.

Even also when a person of color isn’t there and maybe it’s just white people and racism is happening, say something. You know it’s wrong, say something.

White saviorism is it’s very important to interrogate the intention behind which you may be trying to do something. Are you doing it because you want to look like the good white person or are you doing it because it’s the right thing to do?

Furthermore, in trying to help, are you taking that stance that I know what’s best for them or am I consulting with them and asking, “How may I be of service?” I’m so grateful for the people in my life who do that, who ask me “How can I support you in this situation? Would it be helpful if I did this?” They give me the choice.

MK: Intent often comes up in these conversations about race. When people are called out, they might say, “I didn’t mean X, Y or Z.” How can we shift that conversation?

LS: Many teachers in this work often talk about the difference between intent and impact. Your intention, for many people, is to be a good person, the vast majority of people. The impact is whether you like it or not, whether you accept it or not, white supremacy exists, it impacts you and shows up in your thoughts and beliefs and behaviors.

People really need to get out of this, “I’m not trying to be a racist,” because once again, it shuts down the conversation. If I were to bump into you, my first reaction is “I’m so sorry.” It wasn’t my intent to bump into you, but I did, and I apologized because I may have knocked you over or hurt you.

MK: How is doing this personal work necessary in order to address racism at a systemic level and create a better society?

LS: What I want people to understand is institutions and systems are upheld by individual people. When you begin to interrogate within yourself and really look at yourself and create change from within, you change how you show up in the world.

We have absolutely had progress in the world. If it was just about changing the law, then we wouldn’t have racism. If you, as an individual, hold white privilege, that means you as an individual are also unconsciously in some way causing harm to people of color. That’s where you hold the power to create change. I really want people to feel empowered to create change as individuals.

I want to end by saying the work is challenging and it is hard. You will wonder if you are going to get something out of this, a certificate or something at the end. You don’t get a cookie. You don’t get anything at the end of it, but you get to live your life according to your actual values, your actual values being that you want people to be treated equally and that you want to cause less harm. You get that gift, which is priceless.

When you’re going through this process, if you choose to do this work, have that in mind; even as you’re going through this, as difficult and as challenging as it is, first of all, it’s not as hard as being impacted by racism and secondly, the gift is that you get to live your life according to being the person that you want yourself to be. You’re not just seen as good, but you’re actually doing good.

Sarah Holtz interviews Myrieme Churchill, Executive Director, Parents For Peace

MC: I am half French Moroccan with a Muslim father and a Christian mother. I am a trained therapist. I’ve worked for many years with mental health issues. I’ve worked in psychiatric units.

I’ve worked in the human trafficking field in Marseille. I also worked helping young women that would end up in sex trafficking.

After Charlie Hebdo’s attack in France, I became extremely concerned about what was happening. I didn’t really understand much about the problem of extremism. As everybody else, I was frightened and very angry.

Because I’m based in Boston, after the marathon bombing, I was extremely more and more worried about what was happening, and I wanted to help.

I was seeking to do something about this issue and then I found out about Parents for Peace. Since I was based in the United States, I started speaking to Mr. Bledsoe who is the founder of Parents for Peace along with his daughter Monica Holley. I realized that this was an incredibly wonderful loving family who had been very supportive to their son Carlos.

When their son Carlos in 2009 converted to Islam and became groomed and recruited into extremism, they didn’t really understand what was happening. The big flag was when he took down the pictures of [inaudible 01:47] in their house. For an African American family, that was very upsetting and very worrisome.

They didn’t really understand what was happening and why the changes were happening to Mr. Bledsoe’s son. He became agitated. He would give a hard time to his sister about the way she was dressed. He wanted the whole family to convert to Islam.

He ended up going to Yemen and got further more radicalized. He came back to the United States, shot two people at a military recruitment center. One was wounded and one died. Now today he is serving a life sentence.

The family was overwhelmed and shocked. They didn’t understand what was happening to them. They had really no where to ask for help. Everybody was judgmental around them.

They founded Parents for Peace because first of all they wanted to find out whether there were other families like them that struggled with the same issue.

When I joined parents for peace, the first thing I did was look for other family members that were impacted by extremism. It was the first eye opener for us to find out that there were many families in the United States. Those families came from different backgrounds, different villages and different ethnic backgrounds. Those people were also from very different political backgrounds.

We were talking about a sample of what America is. What was very clear was that those families had been seeking help, but they struggled alone to do something about this issue. The clarity was that we had to bridge that gap.

We started putting together a protocol to launch the first and only [inaudible 03:53] national helpline in the United States to be able to equip families and communities to have some help.

Of course, we had no idea how it was going to work out. What we have done as the protocol for the helpline was create it based on the insights of the families and former extremists from all ideologies for us to be able to see their experiences and insights so we can help other families.

SH: How is the helpline going these days? What do those relationships look like?

MC: First of all, what we have learned is that parents, friends, communities were calling about issues that have to do with bullying, kids on the spectrum, kids that were dealing with racism or mental health issues.

Extremism really looks more and more like a drug of choice. From someone like me who has worked as a clinician for over 30 years, worked in both inpatient and outpatient units and with young people that were struggling with different kinds of issues, this looked very similar. It looked like a déjà vu for me, which surprised me.

I started thinking of this issue as a terrorism issue because this is what you would hear in the news media and from politicians. But what I was finding out is that these were common family members calling about just regular kids with regular issues that we all have heard of. It gave us more guidance and direction about how to help those families and we realized that we were on the right path.

The help that is needed to be provided for those callers and those family members is to find out the root of where things start going in the wrong way and start doing forensic investigations about who those kids were before they became extremists; what they looked like at their best helping us to understand what had been going on.

The families or the callers are our team working together to figure out how this started and also to start working on the bridges that can help reconnect the young person that is struggling with extremism with their loved ones to rebuild those bridges back to when things were well. Our intervention had to be as tailored to try to win the person who is struggling with extremism.

SH: I’ve read that it’s a lot about appealing to a person’s need for identity, belonging and a purpose. How do you combat those kinds of drives? I know that a lot of young people who fall prey to extremism, it’s because of that sense of identity and belonging that they are looking for.

MC: What is also interesting to me is that I have seen cases of young Muslim boys and also white non-Muslim boys that I could say are identical issues; feeling that they don’t belong. There is a prepackaged concept that people look a certain way when they don’t belong when actually that is very much untrue. When people are struggling with their identity where they feel they don’t fit in, whether it’s Muslim, brown kid or white, non-Muslim kid, it’s very much the same.

Unfortunately, those teenagers don’t necessarily have the skills to reach out to someone for help, to their parents. There is the feeling of shame, so they just put up with it until it’s too much. They need to find a way to release all this and often they become secretive and they don’t go see their parents or their best friends. They just struggle with it.

Going online becomes a way of releasing all that struggle the same way some kids will self-harm or use drugs. They will go and find other people that can understand them, and they will find those people.

I know that often we have blamed technology for this issue, but I want to tell you that technology becomes just like a living room where people go to find a way out of their suffering. The grooming and recruiting really happens in our houses, in our communities and in our schools and we need to remember that it happens in the real world before it happens online.

SH: I know that you’ve had national gatherings in places like D.C. I’m curious if you could share a store with us of a time when you saw a healing occur in one of those groups.

MC: Amongst our members, as I’ve mentioned, they come from different kinds of ideologies and issues. One success story is that one of our members, who is a former neo-Nazi and another who is a former Muslim supremacist reached out to our member Chris Buckley who is a former KKK member. He is a veteran from Afghanistan that came back with PTSD and a lot of issues of drug addiction. They helped him to leave the Klan.

For us, this is the most successful story. People can change their hearts when they are healing. People can go from being a proud KKK member to being the most activist with friendships with people who are Muslims and immigrants; people that they would have hated in the past and really hands on doing everything they can to repair their older beliefs.

For us, what is a success story is to see that people are addressing their wounds and being willing to take responsibility for them, healing them and being part of the solution.

SH: I’m also curious about how you approach conversations with people who are resistant to the idea that extremism among young people is a public health crisis. That framework that you talked about, that it’s a drug of choice, how do you approach conversations with folks that don’t necessarily agree with you on that?

MC: The way I would approach them is to say, “Come and speak to all our members that are all over the USA, Europe and Canada. You will find out that every single one of these people will recognize themselves.” When you meet the members of Parents for Peace, you will see Muslim immigrants, whites, Christians, African-Americans, Baptists, every religion, every color, every ethnicity. People that are voting in a very different way.

What is extraordinary about our organization is that we represent every single person in the United States. Some of them are pro-guns. Some of them are against guns. We are the entire diversity of this country. What is amazing is that when we come together, we are on the same page because every single one of them have been affected and impacted by extremism.

What I would say for people who want to debate us is to say, “Come and meet all our members.”